tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post370582314670425246..comments2024-02-21T12:40:49.323-05:00Comments on The Absorbascon: The Vixen EffectScipiohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16217376618860561999noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-82648837778509290922008-11-15T14:17:00.000-05:002008-11-15T14:17:00.000-05:00Barack Obama is an African-American. In that he is...Barack Obama is an African-American. In that he is a person of both African and American descent.<BR/>He is also black, albeit with a white mother which more accurately makes him bi-racial. So he's a bi-racial American...but lets face it, in America, in his case, that equates to black. Maybe that will change. It has not as of yet.<BR/><BR/>Charlize Theron is an African-American. In that she is a person who was born in South Africa and has, if I'm not mistaken, become an American citizen. She is also white.<BR/><BR/>I am a British-American. In that I am a person of both British and American descent. I am also black. Not bi-racial. Black, black-American, but not an African-American.<BR/><BR/>You are conflating two very separate issues. Being black does not mean you have had the American experience. It simply means you display a set of physical characteristics that strongly relate you to Africa, pre-colonization. There are black people all over the world and guess what? They're not all American.<BR/><BR/>Barack Obama's father was not an African-American. He was African and Kenyan. He was also Black. Black and African-American are not synonymous. Barack Obama was born an American and has, therefore, experienced America as a black man (ostensibly or otherwise). That makes him a Black American <I>and</I> an African-American. That also makes him the first black president of the United States of America.<BR/><BR/>And I wish everyone would stop harping on it. He was simply the best man for the job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-5798042074658378802008-11-13T16:16:00.000-05:002008-11-13T16:16:00.000-05:00black, white, purple or blue- obama is going to ro...black, white, purple or blue- obama is going to rock. is there an email address i can send you some info on a guitar hero and free chicken promo?!Angelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094577113226742127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-52375103911299586692008-11-09T00:00:00.000-05:002008-11-09T00:00:00.000-05:00To the black people I work with, Obama's black. I ...To the black people I work with, Obama's black. I have a soon-to-be-adopted daughter of mixed ancestry... who's been called "black." I respectfully disagree, Scipio, that Obama's not black. Sure, he's biracial, but he's still black. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, the election of a person who is not white is a good thing (provided he does a good job, which I think he will despite the formidable obstacles before him). It's not the end of racism, but it's a major leap forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-5687093684815572502008-11-08T13:38:00.000-05:002008-11-08T13:38:00.000-05:00Well Rob,I'm glad you pointed out that my referrin...Well Rob,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you pointed out that my referring to myself as being an authority on the English was, in fact, "being a jerk". It was satire- intended as a spoof of your own presumptions about your intellectual superiority.<BR/><BR/>But I do agree with many of your contentions. Where we differ may have to do with an age difference between us or the fact that I've constantly lived in racially and economically diverse locations, such as Brooklyn. There are so many different genetic combinations in play, not to mention all the immigration to boot, that it would be a ridiculous futility to try to put racial labels on people just from looking at them.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, I must concede that my personal perspective of race and racial relations is most likely NOT the most common one shared in our national dialogue on the topic. And I apologize if the provocative and seemingly flippant style of my remarks got anyone's blood up in a bad way...<BR/><BR/>I agree with the sentiments that we're all winners on this one and bickering is really unnecessary.<BR/><BR/>-Citizen ScribblerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-28657380004723879752008-11-07T17:56:00.000-05:002008-11-07T17:56:00.000-05:00I thought it was just a skin condition.I thought it was just a skin condition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-86220656858126636572008-11-07T16:53:00.000-05:002008-11-07T16:53:00.000-05:00"I know the correct form- as I said, better than y..."I know the correct form- as I said, better than you.<BR/><BR/>If I wanted to be a jerk..."<BR/><BR/>You know nothing about me, but are assured of, and repeat, your superiority. That pretty much constitutes acting like a jerk.<BR/><BR/>Again, you apparently don't understand the 'generic 'you'' nor its grammatical use, as you keep asking about and assuming who it refers to. Nor do you understand or seem to be familiar with "one-drop rule" in American history. It's not an opinion that Scipio has specifically expressed anywhere, but a cultural understanding that survives its existence as legislation from the end of slavery to it being declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1967 [Loving v Virginia/Virginia Racial Integrity Act.]<BR/><BR/>Scipio is more than entitled and qualified to make up his own mind about race. But the conclusion he has reached flies in the face of over 300 years of American history [and, easily, more than 600 years of history on the American continent.]<BR/><BR/>To suddenly say, about a man who who would be called "black" or by a similar racial term throughout the history of America, that he's not "really" black is unjust and unfair to a segment of society that has struggled for equality for a long time. And comes across, no matter how well intentioned, imho, as petty and nitpicking.<BR/><BR/>It would be nice in an ideal world to move beyond such ideas of black and white to other, more realistic definitions such as multiracial. But that's not the world we live in, nor ever has been. And even in "multiracial" societies, these issues still come to a head... the state of racism and race relations in Brazil is instructive in this regard, and kind of fascinating. But that's a bit of a digression.<BR/><BR/>Done talking to 'Citizen Scribbler' now.Rob Pughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18355643989278053777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-7190844018407607642008-11-07T15:10:00.000-05:002008-11-07T15:10:00.000-05:00JonI am not getting you. How does Obama not "act"...Jon<BR/><BR/>I am not getting you. How does Obama not "act" black? You will have to explain that one to me. Does he "act" white? What's that?<BR/><BR/>You know what? Nevermind, this post and some of the responses are proof enough to convince me that some white people will do anything to assign all positive human attributes to themselves. Ironically, there is nothing anywhere here celebratring the first black U.S. President, but there is a post about a dog passing away. Same as it ever was.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07659065797455099852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-36015155579684784582008-11-07T13:40:00.000-05:002008-11-07T13:40:00.000-05:00As a friend pointed out, the fact that anyone give...As a friend pointed out, the fact that anyone gives a flying fig what Obama's "race" is just goes to show how far away we still are from MLK2's dream, even 45 years later.<BR/><BR/>African, American, African-American, Black, Decaf half-fat mocha latte . . . who cares? The most important thing about him is that he's not George W. Bush. Everything else is gravy.<BR/><BR/>... which wasn't a color reference.Marcoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00170588816722651862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-53930771443155661102008-11-07T13:36:00.000-05:002008-11-07T13:36:00.000-05:00Obama might be half-white, and largely raised by w...Obama might be half-white, and largely raised by white folks, but he certainly seems more 'culturally black' than Condi Rice, who comes from Birmingham, and whose African-American ancestry stretches back to Revolutionary War times.<BR/><BR/>So there's that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-72876963552762043482008-11-07T13:34:00.000-05:002008-11-07T13:34:00.000-05:00ken wrote: "While you make some good points, I thi...ken wrote: "While you make some good points, I think that for the most part people mean that for the first time someone who would be visually identified as "Black" by most Americans was elected despite that fact. In that case his heritage does not matter so much as the tone of his skin."<BR/><BR/>Right, but we've now answered that question - will a guy with black physical features be elected in the US? Yes.<BR/><BR/>What remains is the question of whether someone who *acts* or *sounds* more 'black' or more 'urban' could get elected. But that's a different question, and gets into very individualistic matters, because there are lots of ways of being black in America.<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of white folks who would be unlikely to get elected due to their mannerisms, appearance, accent, or cultural tics. The answer to the question "what kind of white person can get elected" has been changing over the last 200-some years. Now we can start figuring out what kinds of black people can get elected, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-72941841486398528622008-11-07T13:25:00.000-05:002008-11-07T13:25:00.000-05:00Yeah um,While President Obama is technically birac...Yeah um,<BR/><BR/>While President Obama is technically biracial, as many people have pointed out: in America this means you are considered black 99% of the time.<BR/><BR/>Considering Obama only spent like a few days with his father in Kenya once, and was raised and lives in the USA, I'm sure his life experience is much closer to other Black Americans than Black Africans.<BR/><BR/>In any case, it really seems like pointless nitpicking.<BR/>While people are right to be overjoyed at our election of the first "person of color" to be President, I really don't think many people voted for him based on his race.<BR/>It has been painfully obvious for a long time, that he is a gifted leader, and a man of destiny.<BR/>The voters selected the best man for the job. period.<BR/><BR/>Word verification: gueope<BR/>an alien space-cat?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-70551174760789363822008-11-07T13:08:00.000-05:002008-11-07T13:08:00.000-05:00matt wrote: " To me, it implies that everyone is w...matt wrote: " To me, it implies that everyone is white unless a bit of you isn't."<BR/><BR/>What, if you see someone who looks like Obama walking down the street, you intuit his family tree?<BR/><BR/>Do you just assume everyone you see, white, black, or brown, is mixed-race?<BR/><BR/>People go by what they see, not the possible-but-unknowable-genetic-makeup of a person they encounter on the street.<BR/><BR/>What Obama calls himself is frankly irrelevant, because everyone else will decide for him on sight, and that has always been the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-59704395895601896632008-11-07T11:07:00.000-05:002008-11-07T11:07:00.000-05:00Hey Rob,Ever heard of a typo? I know the correct f...Hey Rob,<BR/><BR/>Ever heard of a typo? I know the correct form- as I said, better than you.<BR/><BR/>If I wanted to be a jerk like you I could point out that:<BR/><BR/>"There obviously is no selected group of personages that define race..."<BR/><BR/>is very poor sentence structure. <BR/><BR/>And what a dumb thing to attack me about in the first place when my initial question for you wasn't disingenuous in the slightest.<BR/><BR/>And are you now saying that Scipio is unqualified to make up his own mind about what constitutes "black" or "white" because you think that he used to express the opinion that one drop of black blood made a person black? 'Cause I don't recall reading that in the archives...<BR/><BR/>-Citizen ScribblerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-46061722097552202662008-11-07T10:16:00.000-05:002008-11-07T10:16:00.000-05:00"I probably know more about the English language t..."I probably know more about the English language then you ever will."<BR/><BR/>Except, apparently, for the fact that the expression is "than you ever will" not "then you ever will."<BR/><BR/>Fail.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, the *purpose* of the 'generic you' is that it is used in situations where specificity of attribution isn't appropriate. There obviously is no selected group of personages that define race...<BR/><BR/>...nor was I in any way responding or thinking about you, or what your opinion on the matter is or was... I was responding to Scipio and his original post...Rob Pughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18355643989278053777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-43865250454413789072008-11-07T09:58:00.000-05:002008-11-07T09:58:00.000-05:00Rob Pugh- I know the definition of the word "you"....Rob Pugh- I know the definition of the word "you". I probably know more about the English language then you ever will. That wasn't what I meant and you should have known that- unless you need to brush up on your comprehension skills...<BR/><BR/>But you still failed to specify your unspecified person or persons- therefore, your initial remarks still make no sense outside of being a rant against some vague people who have... what? It's not clear, but you seem to think that I'm one of these people and therefore I'm not allowed to have a say in the definition of race.<BR/><BR/>It's all hard to say. Most of my family came from southern Italy to America and, at that time, they were considered to be "people of color" and now, we're white. Go figure...<BR/><BR/>I think many of you miss the point here. You can argue whether Supergirl is Krytonian or whether she comes from Argos, or whether Obama is black or not but, really, what the heck difference does it make? I'm sorry that you seem to have so much personally invested in the color of the man's skin rather than the content of his character. Maybe someday you'll listen to the words of Martin Luther King and learn his lessons. Don't worry, some folks just take a little longer for the scales to fall from their eyes...<BR/><BR/>-Citizen ScribblerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-69823243022279446102008-11-06T20:11:00.000-05:002008-11-06T20:11:00.000-05:00Scipio, I'm reminded of a critic (I think it was R...Scipio, I'm reminded of a critic (I think it was Rex Reed) who once huffed about the changing criteria for a "good" film in the 60s/70s. He said something along the lines of "there are people who like movies, and people who only like the movies they like."<BR/><BR/>I like the comics I like. I only want to read "good" comics, and am consoled about being faced with ones I don't like through the pleasure of expressing my displeasure. It doesn't help that most of the corporate characters I like have been handled heinously for most of this decade. I'd have much lower standards if comics still cost $0.50, but at $3-4, I'm downright offended most of the time. I want to have a good time, or be challenged/impressed... not watch lousy creators and misguided editors form a bukkake circle around the DC Universe.<BR/><BR/>Besides, you always need a hard-to-please crank around, for diversity's sake. You know, in my experience here, you seem to bristle at opinions contrary to your own, while that's always been my favorite starting point...Diabolu Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685199809207954223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-55606991536675744462008-11-06T19:36:00.000-05:002008-11-06T19:36:00.000-05:00In the aftermath of an historic election like this...In the aftermath of an historic election like this one, it's the height of hypocrisy to criticize one set of cultural and racial semantics only to replace with it with one that's just as flawed and just as arbitrary. Saying Obama isn't black because of his parents' race is narrow and racialist in its own right and is also contradicted by much of his personal history and biography. <BR/><BR/>I agree that the label of Obama as a 'black president' smacks of equivocation and oversimplifies his background, but rather than dwelling on whether his genetics entitle him to be part of black culture, let's just sit back, take a deep breath, and take this election as an opportunity to move beyond this crap.BIG MIKEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365147999145372102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-57484605780576839622008-11-06T18:44:00.000-05:002008-11-06T18:44:00.000-05:00Yeah, yeah. And my buddy Spectrum Bear isn't gay b...Yeah, yeah. And my buddy Spectrum Bear isn't gay because, once upon a time, he had sex with women. Twice.<BR/><BR/>I get into arguments with people about gay marriage in which they say "gays can't have kids!". When I point out that gays can reproduce just fine, and lesbians are having babies all over the place, they say, basically: "She's been touched by a man's sperm, so that's not REALLY lesbian, is it?"<BR/><BR/>You're right, scipio, "black," as it is used in America, is a cultural term. But there are some consequences to that:<BR/><BR/>(1) You're not the entire culture in and of yourself. You don't get to decide what it means.<BR/><BR/>(2) As a culturally defined term, it is of necessity vague, and changes over time. When people apply a mathematical level of nitpicking to it, is says more about the nitpickers than about who is and who isn't black.<BR/><BR/>Walking down almost any street in this country, Barack Obama would be recognized as black. (Particularly in the more racist neighborhoods.) He self-identifies as black. He has African ancestry, but was born in this country. <BR/><BR/>He's black.<BR/><BR/>Most whites see him as black, and most blacks see him as black. I think the culture has spoken.<BR/><BR/>Yesterday was the first day in the history of our nation when black parents could turn to their kids and say, "Look, it's true! Even a black man can become president in this country!" And many did, with tears in their eyes. Why ANYONE would pick that moment to say, "Well, he's not REALLY black...." is beyond me. (Actually, I know why some people would. I don't know why you would, though.)<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I hear folks tell adopted children, "Those aren't REALLY your parents, you know." And so it can be argued, by a nitpicker. But it doesn't match common usage, AND it's cruel.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you meant to say that he's not Jesse Jackson. But "black," even as a cultural term, covers a wider range than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-81912892868122522592008-11-06T18:22:00.000-05:002008-11-06T18:22:00.000-05:00You might also say it's the "Halle Berry" effect. ...You might also say it's the "Halle Berry" effect. First black woman to win the best actress oscar, also the product of one black and one white parent. Or the "Tiger Woods" effect. If I understand what you are saying, neither of these people are black. <BR/><BR/> I guess you can try to make the claim that diminishing these peoples accomplishments as "firsts" in their fields is somehow not racist. I'm just not sure you could prove it to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-56221665414158718212008-11-06T18:04:00.000-05:002008-11-06T18:04:00.000-05:00I guess I understand the sentiment of this post, b...I guess I understand the sentiment of this post, but I agree with Rob Pugh. It has already started among some of the more repugnat right wingers (not you), the notion that Obama is not even black. With all due respect (and I mean this because I really like your site)this is bullshit. Obama has grown up as a black man, has identified himself as being such and as Rob Pugh has pointed out, historically in this country he IS a black man. Based on the campaign he was definitely treated like a black man. Typically, he was called on to soothe white fears and justify himself where other candidates had not. And I betcha that he was constantly reminded of being a black man while at Harvard. So, while I don't think that your post means this I will say that it sounds very close to you assigning his success to the fact that he had a white parent.<BR/><BR/>Also, the idea that people who identify him as being a black man in this country is being "racist" towards whites is abolutely absurd.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07659065797455099852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-84068612250607738052008-11-06T17:59:00.000-05:002008-11-06T17:59:00.000-05:00So, um....Melba Manton was the first American blac...So, um....Melba Manton was the first American black female DC character to headline her own strip, and Bumblebee would have been the first American black female superhero, right?<BR/><BR/>(And seriously, let's totally not get started on the Storm issue -- African goddess, half black American, or Modesty Blaise ripoff/drag queen manque?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-18105405063733325002008-11-06T16:29:00.000-05:002008-11-06T16:29:00.000-05:00Citizen Scribbler - "In English grammar, generic y...Citizen Scribbler - "In English grammar, generic you or indefinite you is the use of the pronoun you to refer to an unspecified person... The phenomenon of generic you, though decried in the works of some still-read prescriptivist grammarians, is so widespread that it is nearly standard usage."<BR/><BR/>I weep for the educational system sometimes.<BR/><BR/>As a society and as a culture, for over the last two hundred years, anyone with any "black" ancestry, or with a "black" visage or appearance, was identified as a "black" person. Hell, even some who could "pass" as white, once their heritage was found out, were once again put in their place as "black."<BR/><BR/>To now, suddenly, when you [again, the generic "you"] have a man who meets the historically, culturally accepted criteria of "black" to redefine the term because we're "beyond" that now, is, imho, nonsense.<BR/><BR/>...of course race is a social identifier, not a "real" one. Yes, he actually "is" multi-racial. And, genetically, as much "white" as he is "black." No one anywhere is 100% anything... We all, somewhere in our genetic and historical background, are a mix of something. But to ignore centuries of cultural and historical context and definition, even if it comes from a positive and progressive place, does a disservice. <BR/><BR/>It doesn't change the fact that by his appearance alone, he would be labeled a black man throughout America's history... To suddenly make the argument now, when that can actually be a positive thing and prescriptive of change, that he isn't "really" black, is, to me, disingenuous at best.Rob Pughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18355643989278053777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-23119229326149205562008-11-06T15:06:00.000-05:002008-11-06T15:06:00.000-05:00I think Ken just expressed my sentiments a lot mor...I think Ken just expressed my sentiments a lot more clearly than I may be capable of. Scipio too, for that matter.<BR/><BR/>JHunt- My remark about being blacker than Obama was a joke but, then again, I suppose it all depends on how you define "black", as others have pointed out.<BR/><BR/>Rob Pugh- I don't know who you're referring to when you say "You don't get to change the rules". I don't recall anyone here making rules...<BR/><BR/>Bryan-Mitchell- Sex with a slave is never consensual outside of erotic literature.<BR/><BR/>-Citizen ScribblerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-35226578801127461442008-11-06T12:57:00.000-05:002008-11-06T12:57:00.000-05:00The question we need to ask, it seems, is what doe...The question we need to ask, it seems, is what does it mean when people grow excited that Obama "is the first Black president", or first "African-Americna president."<BR/><BR/>While you make some good points, I think that for the most part people mean that for the first time someone who would be visually identified as "Black" by most Americans was elected despite that fact. In that case his heritage does not matter so much as the tone of his skin.<BR/><BR/>There are certainly more barriers to break, and many children of long-time African-American citizens who do not receive the breaks and privileges that Obama received. But I don't think that is what most people mean when they say, "Hey, it's the first black president!"Ken Waldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07210855761468730158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-73115069133593141022008-11-06T12:27:00.000-05:002008-11-06T12:27:00.000-05:00A good post and one that made me rethink a few thi...A good post and one that made me rethink a few things.<BR/><BR/>For a few weeks I had been hacked off by the label 'first black president' since I knew that Barack had a white parent and a black parent. It made me wonder how much of a race does a person have to be to qualify to BE that race?<BR/><BR/>Myself, I'm about 1/8 American Indian. I do have a tribal card (though not from a Federally recognized tribe) but I have never presented myself as Indian. <BR/><BR/>However, I could (if it was a Federally recognized tribe) present myself as an Indian and I know other folks that aren't 100% Indian that present themselves as such.<BR/><BR/>So in the end, I guess someone could present themselves as the 'first _____ President' no matter HOW much of that blood that they contain. BUT, does it really matter?<BR/><BR/>Yeah, as a person that voted for McCain (not because of race, but because of politcal platform), I think that it does. Not because of how Obama presented himself, but as how folks viewed him. (I remember the Black Caucus saying that Bill Clinton was the first 'black president' so does that make Barack the second?) <BR/>This is the first step towards not judging folks based on their skin but on their words and actions.<BR/><BR/>The first time <I>anything</I> happens is a cause to celebrate. We have gotten past the stigma of being Catholic and 28 years later another stigma starts to fall. But I think what will be MORE telling is when a Black man, or a Hispanic, or a woman, or a Mormon is elected and it is NOT a big deal. On that day I think we should celebrate, but we will still have to look back and recognize the first step.Dwayne "the canoe guy"https://www.blogger.com/profile/05434021701274164909noreply@blogger.com