tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post115781119559598325..comments2024-03-27T19:04:14.544-05:00Comments on The Absorbascon: Holy Phylogeny, Batman!Scipiohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16217376618860561999noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-9682563370926125742022-12-03T23:57:03.002-05:002022-12-03T23:57:03.002-05:00"If you go by the Strauss and Howe "gene..."If you go by the Strauss and Howe "generational" theory (which I generally think has a lot of merit), we might expect a neo-Classical "Golden Age" style to re-emerge."<br /><br />And so it has, David; so it has.Scipiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12112155718721908876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-16086637394968721962022-12-03T23:54:38.266-05:002022-12-03T23:54:38.266-05:00"Denny O'Neil was writing in all eras con..."Denny O'Neil was writing in all eras concerned."<br /><br />I think even Denny O'Neil's writing is not immune to progression, Mike.Scipiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12112155718721908876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158409429455352802006-09-16T07:23:00.000-05:002006-09-16T07:23:00.000-05:00Could it be cyclical? I think it definitely is cy...Could it be cyclical? <BR/><BR/>I think it definitely is cyclical. We have returned to the Golden Age / Neoclassical heroic model. The models naturally adjust a bit to circumstances and times but the core conceptions seem to remain the same.Scipiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16217376618860561999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158271350377205042006-09-14T17:02:00.000-05:002006-09-14T17:02:00.000-05:00Excellent, excellent stuff.Though it does raise th...Excellent, excellent stuff.<BR/><BR/>Though it does raise the question of what comes next. Could the conception of heroism be cyclical? Is that even possible? <BR/><BR/>The knowledge and perspectives gained in the latter stages can't be un-learned. Perhaps a fifth stage that synthesizes elements of the previous four? That seems to be the case for (good) comics these days.<BR/><BR/>Any thoughts on where it's going?Harvey Jerkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118848012122050416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158158697725981552006-09-13T09:44:00.000-05:002006-09-13T09:44:00.000-05:00Matthew, some quick web surfing shows that the ear...Matthew, some quick web surfing shows that the early creators at DC and Marvel were virtually all of the G.I. generation (born 1901-1924), and mostly in the latter half of it. I couldn't find a single example who *wasn't*, actually - and even some of the publishers were (e.g. Timely's Martin Goodman, born 1910.)<BR/><BR/>Closest I could find for a famous comics person from the earlier "Lost" Generation is Hal Foster, creator of "Prince Valant," born 1892. But that makes sense too, as the strips were where older "established" talents might be found, and comic *books* were clearly a young and hungry man's game.David Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16985574193396205518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158127343319945452006-09-13T01:02:00.000-05:002006-09-13T01:02:00.000-05:00Certainly we see the joeseph Campbell enduring pow...Certainly we see the joeseph Campbell enduring power of Myth for uour best gfour-color heroes to have the flexiblity to reshape themselves into the modern world; irreguarless of whether "modern" is 1960, 1970 or 2000. <BR/><BR/>The oddballs to this progression are certainly ones that stand out as well: Moore's Saga of the Swamp Thing in the 1980's, Starman of the the 1990's which fits more neatly into the Romantic (which is a term that Jack Knight would probably disavow while secretly appreciating).<BR/><BR/>I think that we will have to wait and see the progression of the society to have the reflection of our fears/hopes/dreams show up in our mass fiction. horror movies have always been a perfect barometer for that sort of thing: cultural fears made manifest as zombies, attacking aliens, possession, demons from within, etc. So what sort of heroes will we see, and what kind of mirror will they be? <BR/><BR/>Batman is certainly a very good measuring stick on this: the grim vigilante born out of the depression. Friendly in the 1950's, when the world clearly had no use for the disrespectful lawman who cloaks himself in the shadows ala the red menace. Batman in the 1980's, for instance had to endure a decade plus of people asking if he was psycho, and now he comes across as the voice of reason. The realist. Seriously. What a turnaround for his character. As Steve Englehart wrote in 1977, "sometimes my world goes crazy." Are there any of us in 2006 that don't feel that way these days?<BR/><BR/><BR/>and which version of the Question are we using for this analysis? Denny o'neil's or Steve Ditko's? Where does Booster gold fit into this?inkdestroyedmybrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09037083364689982443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158092177816713832006-09-12T15:16:00.000-05:002006-09-12T15:16:00.000-05:00Yeah... but what generation(s) were the founders a...Yeah... but what generation(s) were the founders and early creators of DC and Marvel? If they were all G.I.s, that would be a good comparison. And, thinking about it, I guess they were, mostly.Matthew Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01007497367844755093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1158000138886762942006-09-11T13:42:00.000-05:002006-09-11T13:42:00.000-05:00If DC is trying to go back to the heroic way of ol...<I>If DC is trying to go back to the heroic way of old, but keep certain modern aspects, does that create a new conception, or will it just become the new Classic style and somewhere down the line we'll have mainstream heroes along the line of V?</I><BR/><BR/>If you go by the Strauss and Howe "generational" theory (which I generally think has a lot of merit), we might expect a neo-Classical "Golden Age" style to re-emerge.<BR/><BR/>Though if it's a <I>creator</I> based thing, it might not show much for a while. Seems to me that the vast majority of current comics creators now are Boomers and Xers. The "Millenial" generation (born 1982-2003, analogous in our cycle to the G.I. "Greatest Generation") hasn't really shown up prominently in comics yet, at least not with much power to shape or reshape things.David Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16985574193396205518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157974869383425982006-09-11T06:41:00.000-05:002006-09-11T06:41:00.000-05:00I don't know what refence to "consolation" you are...I don't know what refence to "consolation" you are making...Scipiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16217376618860561999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157923305965850782006-09-10T16:21:00.000-05:002006-09-10T16:21:00.000-05:00Great post, though I'd hardly say physical courage...Great post, though I'd hardly say physical courage is devalued in Silver Age Marvel. The psychological struggle stuff certainly rings true. Both my favourite comic book moments are about facing despair. "That" sequence from "The Final Chapter" (Amazing Spider-man #33) and the Thing's battle with Doctor Doom in FF #40. <BR/>Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "consolation", Scipio, when you write about Marvel. Is it consoling that even your heroes can despair? Surely the answer can only be "yes" if you're inspired to scorn despair?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157921667499277102006-09-10T15:54:00.000-05:002006-09-10T15:54:00.000-05:00It is a weird synergy, like comic writers kind of ...It is a weird synergy, like comic writers kind of started with the classic sensibilities and by natural progression, followed along the same literary path. <BR/>If DC is trying to go back to the heroic way of old, but keep certain modern aspects, does that create a new conception, or will it just become the new Classic style and somewhere down the line we'll have mainstream heroes along the line of V?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157862186108384752006-09-09T23:23:00.000-05:002006-09-09T23:23:00.000-05:00Sniff. No one ever wants to buy me.Sniff. No one ever wants to buy me.Bullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11708103213119467419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157857508030765022006-09-09T22:05:00.000-05:002006-09-09T22:05:00.000-05:00Oh, who would buy the cow when I give the milk awa...<I>Oh, who would buy the cow when I give the milk away for free?</I><BR/><BR/>Free milk! Free Milk!<BR/><BR/>Actually, a book like that sounds fascinating to me...Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157853921755251122006-09-09T21:05:00.000-05:002006-09-09T21:05:00.000-05:00Any resemblence to classic archetypal progression ...Any resemblence to classic archetypal progression is merely coincidental.<BR/><BR/>Denny O'Neil was writing in all eras concerned.Mike Haseloffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13245812535350962900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157837234613159012006-09-09T16:27:00.000-05:002006-09-09T16:27:00.000-05:00"When are you going to write a book on all this st..."When are you going to write a book on all this stuff?"<BR/><BR/>Oh, who would buy the cow when I give the milk away for free? But I am one of the contributors for a forthcoming Wonder Woman anthology from BenBella's SmartPop Series.<BR/><BR/>"And shouldn't you be at the Baltimore con today?"<BR/>Devon's at that; I wouldn't really know what to do at a convention.<BR/><BR/>"Thank you."<BR/>You're welcome, Justguy; thank <B>you</B>. You can't imagine how much it helps to know someone is reading and appreciating ones work.<BR/><BR/>"couldn't Freedom Fighters also or even alternately be seen as Postmodern "<BR/><BR/>Ariel, that's exactly what Legba (one of the Little Monkeys) said at the store today. Of course, I really consider Post and PostPost just labels for the cycle starting over again. But your description of Postmodernism certainly fits the current DCU to a T.Scipiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16217376618860561999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157835875983662232006-09-09T16:04:00.000-05:002006-09-09T16:04:00.000-05:00Scip, you are amazing. Have you ever thought abou...Scip, you are amazing. Have you ever thought about teaching a course on this at GWU? As Semiotics of Superheroes course or something? Incredible post.<BR/><BR/>One thought: couldn't Freedom Fighters also or even alternately be seen as Postmodern or even Post-Postmodern? In all honesty, I am always a bit confused about what consitutes the differences between the three, as it seems, as evidenced by your link, to be different across art genres. What I understand it to be, from my understanding influenced by training in music and visual art, is:<BR/><BR/>Modern: A rejection of traditional or classical rules of Art, particularly in regards to what could be seen as the self-indulgence of Romanticism. Asking "What is Art?"<BR/>A revolutionary sensibility.<BR/><BR/>PostModern: A return to Classicism, taking the anarchy of Modern and attempting to quantify and analyze it or apply the old rules to the anarchy, even when a difficult fit. Asking "Why is Art?" Despite it's reassumption of rules, it sensitbility tends to be anarchic.<BR/><BR/>PostPostModern: A return to Romanticism, with an extreme self awareness of it's indulgence or inward focus. In comics, it reflects as metatext, or in the case at times of Grant Morrison, hypermetatext. Asking "Who is Art?" A Yogic - a desire for union amidst the chaos - sensibility.<BR/><BR/>So then, I argue Freedom Fighters is Postmodern, with, as you say, a distinct return to Golden Age roots applied to distinctly Modern Antiheroes. <BR/><BR/>Yet it also appears to me Postpostmodern in that it seems to be commenting on itself about the nobility of the mission of the heroes' fight for freedom. The portrayals of Sam's recruits is distinctly Romantic to me in that Les Mis kind of way. Despite the inner tortures they all put themselves through, all the mental baggage they carry, they still are able to put it aside and fight for a higher cause.<BR/><BR/>One could argue that Father Time's world view, though cynical and misanthropic, is the correct/realistic one, and that the Fighter's fight is misguided, perhaps even paranoid, or at worst, vaguely cultlike. Firebrand's reaction to Sam's rescue was not one a free thinking adult makes – it was one of someone who has completely subsumed himself to both Sam's cause and charisma.<BR/><BR/>Or hell, I don't know, maybe I'm just being pretentious throwing around terms like PoMo and PoPoMo. I was just surprised I liked this book so much, as I didn't care for Battle for Bludhaven at all. I fully expect Monarch to pop up in this book at some point, or Father Time to be revealed as Hank Hall or both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157832684070840282006-09-09T15:11:00.000-05:002006-09-09T15:11:00.000-05:00Scipio, I think I'm in love. Posts like this are w...Scipio, I think I'm in love. <BR/><BR/>Posts like this are why in just a couple of months your blog has become my first stop on this crazy internet thing.<BR/><BR/>I've not read new comics for a few years - the darkness became too much - but the Showcase editions have brought me back into the comics fold and you, sir, are the most insightful and articulate voice explaining how comics matter to us and more importantly, why they matter.<BR/><BR/>Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157828945808135602006-09-09T14:09:00.000-05:002006-09-09T14:09:00.000-05:00Yeah, you could look at it like that. Or you could...Yeah, you could look at it like that. Or you could say that the comic book heroes reflect the four generational archetypes isolated by <A HREF="http://www.fourthturning.com" REL="nofollow">Strauss and Howe</A>, which show up in all kinds of things, including, I guess, the four literary conceptions of the heroic. In this case, Hero, Artist, Prophet and Nomad, respectively.Matthew Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01007497367844755093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11737441.post-1157820894331487982006-09-09T11:54:00.000-05:002006-09-09T11:54:00.000-05:00So what about the real recent stuff (relatively sp...So what about the real recent stuff (relatively speaking), that returns to loyalty to the community and moral nobility, but keeps the importance of introspection and individuality? Stuff like JSA or Kingdom Come?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com